Winches

[3D FJ]

I started thinking about my next next mod.  (I like to think ahead)  So i began thinking about winches.  My thoughts started out with what brand/size to go with.  But then i started thinking about those portable winches... the ones that hook up a 2" receiver.  I know that warn makes one, and I believe another one does.  Besides 1.having to lug the winch to your receiver when you need it and 2. having to hook up/install the winch when your bumper is deep in some muck (i'm assuming that with these, you only take it out when you need it on the trail due to possible clearance issues)  are there any other cons to this type of winch setup? 

btw..  the reason i'm considering a portable winch is when not in use, i could potentially use a front receiver for something similar to FJWill's bass coffin.

[higgo]

I thought about this for a while too.

There are two main issues. One is that a receiver is not really designed to take pulls at much of an angle other than straight ahead. That, coupled the additional leverage caused by the the fact that the winch is way out in front, puts a lot of strain on the receiver and mount. It may be strong enough to take a few good pulls, but over time, who knows?

The second issue is that you often don't know when you are going to need the winch, and may find yourself in a situation where it is difficult or impossible to fit it after the fact. You might be deep in a mud hole, or up against a rock, and getting the winch in there might not be so easy.

[3D FJ]

I thought about this for a while too.

There are two main issues. One is that a receiver is not really designed to take pulls at much of an angle other than straight ahead. That, coupled the additional leverage caused by the the fact that the winch is way out in front, puts a lot of strain on the receiver and mount. It may be strong enough to take a few good pulls, but over time, who knows?

The second issue is that you often don't know when you are going to need the winch, and may find yourself in a situation where it is difficult or impossible to fit it after the fact. You might be deep in a mud hole, or up against a rock, and getting the winch in there might not be so easy.

Since i wrote the OP, i thought about these two exact things...  It got me thinking.

[NCFJ]

I have been using a winch on a multi mount for years with no issues.  The system works well and it also allows you to use the winch in the rear 2" receiver if you chose to as well.

The off angle pull being bad is conjecture at best.  I have made countless pulls at severe angles with absolutely no ill effects at all.  THe multi mount trays are offered by all 3 of the big three winch companies as well as others.  When these multi mount trays were being designed I can guarantee you that the dedign engineers also took into consideration the 2" receivers that they mount to.

Winches mount to bumpers with 4 10mm bolts.  I am thinking that a 2" receiver welded into other structural steel is as strong or stronger that those bolts.  REceiver ratings on trucks are rated for towing.  In general those ratings are more related to the truck than to the hitch itself.  This is why you can add a load stabilizer to a trailer and go from a 5,000 lb rating to a 10,000.  Or why you can bump up to a 2 5/8 ball and raise ratings to 15,000 lbs on a class 4.

The big advantages of the multi mount system are that until you need it the winch rides in the back, out of the weather and muck.

You can use it front or rear, also in other vehicles.

When not wheeling it stays in the shop, no constant overhanging weight and the winch lives a lot longer.

[higgo]

I think we have discussed this before, and at the risk of flogging this dead horse...

It may well be conjecture, but it is based on solid science. The force on a receiver during a winching operation will be concentrated in one area (the receiver), which (in the rear at least) is rated at only 5000lb, significantly less than most winches, even before snatch blocks are used. Front receivers are usually reinforced and do a better job of load distribution than the rear, but use of the multi-mount in the rear is touted as a benefit of multi-mounts as well.

I have not measured it, but I would imagine that a multi-mount is a good 12" further out from the frame than a bumper mount. During a side pull, that is going to put a lot of stress on the receiver, and may cause accelerated failure. Front aside, I would have real issues with using a multi-mount on the rear at an angle. It may work fine as you say, but I don't want to be around if it does give out. Hopefully, it is only the frame that bends, and not the mount or receiver that gives out.

And it is only as much conjecture as your statement that the winch will last "a lot longer" if it is stored in the trunk. Not saying I disagree with you, but I assume you have no double blind trials to back that up either? Regardless, considering that you are going to want the winch mounted for that mud hole, I would think you will get as much exposure to crap as a bumper mount. And if you didn't mount it, good luck getting it on when you are waist deep in mud.

And just because three vendors make multi-mount plates, doesn't mean that they are a good idea. There are a lot more bumper manufacturers, and far mor bumper owners than multi-mount owners.

There are a lot of good qualities associated with multi mount, and it is up to the individual whether on balance, the benefits outweight the potential drawbacks. I eneded up going with a bumper, but I was very close to buying a multi-mount instead.

[NCFJ]

I am not interested in arguing the point.  But double blind tests, please.  You cant understand that a winch subjected to the elements for years sitting on a bumper is going to wear faster than a winch stored inside 99% of the time?

As far as the winch sitting 12" farther out, no.  The winch mount bottoms out in the 2" receiver so the winch only sticks out the width of the winch farther.

By all means, mount your winch on the front bumper.  I have had both hard mounted winches and also multi mount mounted winches.  In either case I avoid waist deep mud like the plague.  iH8MUD!!!!! and also water crossings.

For years I have heard of people talking about winch tray/receiver failure but to date I have not seen any evidence of this.  Winches and winching in general is a very dangerous process.  The loads put on all the related equiptment are large and only as stong as the weakest piece of equiptment being used.  How many times have you seen someone using a winch standing directly in front of the rig, nuts!!  Personally I think the remote winch control is one of the best improvements on winches in a while.  Allows me to get farther away and behind bigger trees 

[TacoWill]

ive tested the bumper thoroughly...it dont budge..i even once had to add the shackle receiver mount to the front and high lift it...(that's a hole lot of tongue weight)  the bumper was solid..  darren... multi mount is the way to go...esp on LI where a winch isn't required often..  and you maybe in luck...if i get a good trade in value on my Fj that bumper unfortunately goes up for sale...unless i can get it on the tacoma

[3D FJ]

ive tested the bumper thoroughly...it dont budge..i even once had to add the shackle receiver mount to the front and high lift it...(that's a hole lot of tongue weight)  the bumper was solid..  darren... multi mount is the way to go...esp on LI where a winch isn't required often..  and you maybe in luck...if i get a good trade in value on my Fj that bumper unfortunately goes up for sale...unless i can get it on the tacoma

you're really gonna get rid of it.  wow.  btw..  did i see you at the LI Fish expo on saturday?  I think it was you, but i've only met you in the dark.  I've only seen you in a picture.  hahaha..

[TacoWill]

you're really gonna get rid of it.  wow.  btw..  did i see you at the LI Fish expo on saturday?  I think it was you, but i've only met you in the dark.  I've only seen you in a picture.  hahaha..

haha yea  i was there Saturday afternoon

[NCFJ]

Thanks for the kind words Will, Tacoma huh :)  cool!!

I was not trying to sell a bumper or a winch tray system.  Merely expressing my point.  There is so much mis information out there about hitches in general.  Like the 5,000 pound rating for instance.  If you add a load leveling attachment to the trailer that rating goes up to 10,000 lbs.  All that load leveling rig does is to add torque to the way the load is carried by the hitch and dispurses the weight to the front wheels as well.  So poof the load rating is instantly doubled.

Tongue weight is another factor.  Tongue weight is a measurement of how much weight can be put out on the ball before the weight starts to lighten the front end to the point it starts to get dangerous and control is loss.  Yet with the load distribution hitch tongue weight is doubled.  The size of the ball has as much to do with load rating as the hitch itself.  A 10,000 lb rating is useless on a 2" ball.

[higgo]

That is slightly misleading.

Yes, a class III hitch is limited to 5000lb, regardless of the tow vehicle. An F350 with a class III is limited to towing 5000lb. Add load distribution setup and that truck is safe pulling 10,000lb.

Not the same on the FJ. The vehicle is rated to tow 5000lb. Adding a load distribution setup will not increase that. The motor, gvw, wheelbase, frame , mounts etc, all determine a maximum trailer that the vehicle can tow regardless of hitch classification.

I would not subject the rear hitch, bolts and cross member to a 10,000 pull and expect them to hold up for long, especially sideways, and with the additional leverage of the mount.


 

[NCFJ]

This conversation could go on forever.  Sure it could be viewed as misleading if I were speaking of the FJC exclusively  but that is not the case.  I was speaking in general terms.

Obviously you do not think that the hitch on the FJ can handle winching forces.  Perhaps the stock hit on the FJ can not, I can not say for sure because I personally have not tried it.  I have, on the other hand used a winch tray in a Resse hitch on the FJ and also my own bumper and hitch on the FJ and it worked flawlessly. 

I have not just done this once but multiple times at different angles generally with my front end tied off to a tree and winching another vehicle from behind.  No distortion of the hitch in any way.

I will continue to use this setup both front and rear, as I am sure you will not.  I have had conversations with people in R&D and design at both Warn and Superwinch about this subject and both assured me that this practice is both safe and structurally sound.  People use a 2” receiver plug with a D ring all the time for recovery, same forces being applied.

If the day comes when I read literature by structural engineers stating that this practice is unsafe and the 2” receiver can not handle those types of forces I will stop using it.  Until then I prefer this setup over a fixed mount winch on a vehicle that does 80% oof it’s time on the road.

[chindo]

  Anyone here with a Expedition one bumper with a winch. If so what winch are you running?

[DAPURAK]

  Anyone here with a Expedition one bumper with a winch. If so what winch are you running?

FJJesse has an E1 front bumper with warn 8000 

[3D FJ]

haha yea  i was there Saturday afternoon

hahah.   I was pretty sure it was you by the van staal booth.